Puddings?

[ladyofastolat]

Someone at work lent me a bizarre Wii game called Cooking Mama, in which you have to "cook" various world dishes. The game is very clearly Japanese. The first example of national British cuisine is something unhelpfully called a generic "pudding", and it consists of egg, milk, sugar, grand marnier and vanilla. It's put in small pots, then tipped out into a plate, where it keeps its shape, and is yellow, with a brown top. What on earth is this supposed to be? The second British dish is "cream puffs", which, if I remember correctly through the slightly alcoholic haze of last night, contain salt.

As you play, "cooking mama", in a very strong Japanese accent, tells you how you've done. When you do well, she says something that sounds like "good dog." If you do pathetically, she says "don't mind." Your final ratings are either "very good", "good" or "try hard." I like "try hard" as another way of saying "you're hopeless" and plan to use it.

I'm at work today, getting driven mad by the constant beeping of the events team's answer phone. Grr! Still, I've taken Monday as leave, so after today, don't need to be at work until January 2nd. Yay! We're off to The Mainland tomorrow, so if I don't post again, I hope everyone has a lovely Christmas / winter festival of their choice.

Comments

[wellinghall.livejournal.com]

And a Merry Christmas to you two!

[phoebesmum.livejournal.com]

If not for the Grand Marnier, it would be almost-but-not-quite creme caramel. Not really the most typical of British puddings. Where is the classic Spotted Dick when you need one?

Have a wonderful Christmas!

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

It did look like creme caramel. When I saw that the British dish was called "pudding" I assumed it would be Christmas pudding or sticky toffee pudding or some such.

[muuranker.livejournal.com]

I think I've eaten 'pudding' in the US. Where, also, it is alleged to be British. In France, which is I suspect it's home, it is called 'flan'.

On the other hand ... does it tell you how to prepare hoba-miso (miso paste and vegetables on a magnolia leaf over a little brazier)?

[sally_maria]

I wondered if it was flan, but I thought flan was Mexican. (So I looked it up on wikipedia.)

I looked up recipes and none of them matched exactly, but I don't know enough about cooking to know whether they are just variations on a theme or make something completely different.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

Interesting. I'm amused that despite the French-sounding name, the French don't call creme caramel "creme caramel."

This leads me to a related wondering about the difference between a flan (in the UK usage of the word, which appears to be totally different from the above) and a quiche. I'm sure that when I was young, you could buy flans in shops, and they looked and tasted pretty much the same as what would now be sold as a quiche.

[the-marquis.livejournal.com]

Yes, flans have become quiche, I think it happened some time in the 80s but I 've never fathomed why.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

Today I had a slice of 'mature cheddar and caremelised onion tart' which tasted just like quiche. Or flan.

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

Now that's interesting. To me, flan is something entirely different from quiche (though not, of course, resembling creme caramel either.) Basically it is a pudding consisting of a very particularly shaped shallow base-plus-edge made of spongy stuff, filled with your choice of fruit(s) in jelly. That's the best description I can come up with, anyway. It was a regular pudding in my childhood, especially but not only at grandparents' houses. I believe one can/could buy ready-made flan-cases from shops. I must admit I haven't had a flan in years and years, and it is probable that I never had a quiche until after I had my last flan, but as quiche is savoury they nonetheless occupy entirely different places in my mind.

[the-marquis.livejournal.com]

Ah ... Flan as a dessert is in my mind a different thing again, like you can have apple pie or steak and ale pie. But if you were to want a flan case some shops do still sell them, the light spongy ones that is.

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

I don't *really* want a flan case, as to be honest I never really liked flan all that much. But a certain nostalgia does make me half-want to try it again ;-)

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

How odd. That sounds to me like calling one particular dish, and just that dish, "dinner." (I'm a proud and defiant user of the word "pudding" as a generic word for the sweet course, instead of "dessert", "sweet", "afters" etc.) I didn't look at any other "recipes" other than the so-called British ones.

[wellinghall.livejournal.com]

"Quiche Lorraine" has always seemed to me to be bacon-and-egg pie with a foreign accent.

The Hitchcock film "To Catch A Thief", set in the South of France in the 50s:
Cary Grant (Frenchman): "Have some of this, it's called Quiche Lorraine."
Visiting Englishman: "Oh yes, I've heard of that."

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I remember having quiche while on holiday in France in around 1978, and it not being something you could get at home. Then a few years later they started appearing in the shops over here. (My grandma always considered them very new-fangled, and called them "kwitch".) Round about the same time, I also remember my Mum talking about this wonderful thing she'd eaten while on holiday in Italy before she got married, called "pizza", which you couldn't get over here...

[bunn.livejournal.com]

I think a bacon-and-egg pie would have a lid on it, and probably be a bit deeper.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

According to my Dad (Scottish), the difference between a tart and a pie is that a tart is sweet and a pie is savoury. Mince pies, he claims, are actually mice tarts. According to my Mum (English), the difference between a pie and tart is that pies have lids and tarts don't. They bicker good-naturedly about this every Christmas.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

Mice tarts! I don't fancy your Dad's cooking, I'm now imagining something like stargazy pie, only with mice...

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

*laughs* I noticed that typo just after posting it (I blame the fact that I've got sore fingers due to cutting my nails too short last night - or maybe it was subliminal influences from the cats that were wailing loudly at my feet that they were starving) but decided to leave it unedited in the services of comedy.

[wellinghall.livejournal.com]

Terry Pratchett beat you to it (although with rats).

[philmophlegm.livejournal.com]

"I'm a proud and defiant user of the word "pudding" as a generic word for the sweet course, instead of "dessert", "sweet", "afters" etc."

How terribly U of you! Nancy Mitford would be ever so proud...

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

Really? I didn't realise it was considered U. I read that book a very long time ago. Must read it again... though I expect most of it is way out of date now. One generation's U can become the next generation's non-U, I would expect.

[philmophlegm.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's one of the classic U / Non-U dividers. Non-U types say "dessert", U-types say "pudding". Generally the french-sounding word is non-U. Serviette would be another example, as would toilet. The U equivalents would be napkin and lavatory (or loo) respectively.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

It's pretension, isn't it? The non-U people think "pudding" sounds "common" so deliberately say "dessert", since they think it sounds posher.* However, I'm sure this is the sort of thing that can quickly shift over time, so in some cases, perhaps what started as a pretentious affectation by "common" people actually becomes the "posh" way of saying things.

* Which is a common theme of "Watching the English", too: there are lots of things that the aspiring middle classes or "new money" wouldn't be seen dead doing, since they think they're "common" - but actually the upper classes do do these things.

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

Bloody 'Ell, as a regular user of 'pudding', 'napkin' and 'loo' (and eschewer of the alternatives you list - indeed I was brought up to say lavatory, but loo is simpler these days) that must make me very U. How disturbing.

*wikipedias quickly* I appear to be saved from full-out U-ness by my use of 'mirror' and 'glasses'. Phew. I must say, though, most of the apparently non-U terms sound like pretentious twaddle to me - greens? Preserve (for jam)? Pass on? Pardon? I mean, really!

Some of the alternatives are interesting. 'Couch' and 'Settee' are both non-U - I happily say settee but think 'couch' is the sort of word only used in Courts adverts. Meanwhile of course I wouldn't say the U 'drawing room' but hate the non-U 'lounge' - I would say sitting room, which isn't listed.

I think LoA's idea that what is U and non-U must change over the generations sounds very likely, so with any luck I'm now quite average ;-)

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I say "couch" (never "sofa" or "settee") but have never, to my knowledge, appeared in a Courts advert. ;-) I'd say "sitting room" or "living room". Looking at the list, I say slightly more U things than non-U things. I do say "pardon," though. It was drilled into me at school that "what?" was rude, and we were taught to say "pardon?" if we wanted something repeated. Similarly with "toilet" instead of "loo." Presumably I had a non-U teacher.

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

Really? Gosh. I've never consciously heard you say 'couch', and I would have sworn I didn't know anyone who actually said it in normal conversation. I can only imagine that because the impression of it in my head is so irredemably poncy, whereas my friends obviously are not, I have a filter which preserves my own internal world-view, however flawed, in the face of reality ;-) Which is very telling! (I think this is supposed to be a compliment to you, by the way, rather than an insult...)

I did have teachers who tried to persuade me to say "toilet" and "pardon", but was bolshy enough to ignore them ;-) In fact I had a rather traumatic experience at first school with a teacher who wouldn't let me go when I asked to go to the loo, and then seemed to think I was taking the mickey (I nearly wrote something else there which would have been an unfortunate pun) when I corrected myself to "lavatory".

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

Or of course American. Couch, I mean. I think of 'couch' as the generic American word for sofa; I don't know whether that's an accurate perception, though. My idea of US/UK usage differences is a bit of a hit-and-miss affair.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

Mulder's couch had a large role in X-Files fanon, and, yes, it was always called a "couch" by American fans, so I assume from that that it's the usual American word. I did pick up quite a few American expressions at that time, since I was working so hard to ensure that my American characters sounded properly American, that quite a few of the expressions crept into my own spoken vocabulary. However, I'm 99.9 percent sure that "couch" wasn't one of them. My parents, I'm almost entirely sure, also call it a "couch".

I find it interesting how so many of our word choices are not conscious choices at all, but are just a case of us using the word our parents used back when we were two, and leaning our vocabulary. I guess that's the whole point of the U / non-U thing. You can acquire money and aim to mix in posh circles, but you can't shake off those unconscious vocabulary markers that brand you as being not properly posh.

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

I find it interesting how so many of our word choices are not conscious choices at all, but are just a case of us using the word our parents used back when we were two, and leaning our vocabulary.

Heh, I guess that's prince_eldarion already doomed, then. Although having said that, I've noticed that actually Skordh has more of a tendency to use words from the non-U list [aside: I am quite annoyed about this, as it undermines my quite determined argument that he is posher than me], so El has been presented with both U and non-U words fairly equally. I expect, given this background, and the fact he goes to nursery where it seems far more common (er, as in 'usual') to say eg. toilet, he'll likely come out more non-U on balance. Oddly enough, I find myself slightly minding this, not (I sincerely trust) because of the U/non-U thing which I wasn't previously aware of, but because I find I am quite defensively attached to what I feel are the 'right' words, and somehow seem tied to loyalty to the parents and grandparents who taught them to me.

Gosh, this is all fascinating. I have always thought that about language, and the way language/words change and shift over time etc, but this adds an extra dimension of language choice, conscious or unconscious, to think about. Given how interesting I am finding this discussion, I think maybe I really should read that Watching the English book, which already sounded interesting from what you have previously said. Or, maybe I should *not*, given the potential risk of ending up in the slightly uncomfortable position of scrutinising *all* aspects of my own and others' behaviour, rather than merely speech, as I have found myself doing over the last couple of weeks...

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I'd love to read an updated version of the U/non-U thing. I've been reading quite a few books on language and how it evolves, and it's very clear that a word can go from "despised, only used by the ignorant masses" to "correct form" very quickly - and vice versa. I do wonder how many of the classic U words are still U. Could the publication of a book about it actually drive the change? - i.e. aspiring "non-U" people deliberately start using the "U" words, so the "properly U" people start not using them?

I'm always amazed at how attached people (including me) get to the "right" words. The sheer vitriol that a lot of people attach to "Americanisms." I read certain American usages and everything emotional in me cries out "This is wrong!" I have to consciously tell myself that this is, in fact, right in America (and, in some cases, was considered right over here four hundred years ago, too.)

You're right about Watching the English. Since you're finding this so interesting, I'm sure you'll love it. It will, however, cause you to look at everything you and others do in a different light.

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

Yes, I'd like to see a proper update, too. The wikipedia entry, which is all I've read, claims that while very few people today still eg. looking-glass, the majority of differences are still useful as curent social markers. I'd like to see research/proof of that - your theory about shifts over time always sounded more likely to me. Actually, if anything, I might guess that the aristocracy on the whole, being relatively small, inbreeding, and secure in social position (generalisations, of course) might retain the same word use as generations ago, but that the general mass of non-aristocracy would see considerable change - and probably with more Americanisms creeping in to, to bring another thread in.

I have to consciously tell myself that this is, in fact, right in America (and, in some cases, was considered right over here four hundred years ago, too.) I suppose 'gotten' is the prime example there.

If I could draw, one day I would get round to doing some pages from my imaginary UK-US picture dictionary, including such pictures as what a Brit would visualise for a man going out wearing vest and suspenders, and for balance, what an American would visualise for a man going out wearing a jumper. Hmmn, I might have to have a go at those anyway.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I once did a silly quiz for someone at work - an American who'd lived in Britain for ten years. "Are you British or American?" the quiz asked. I then set up scenarios, like "Your boss comes into work wearing a vest and suspenders. How do you react?" and "Your child's teacher asks them if they need a rubber. Are you outraged?"

By the way, re. the reply I've just posted: It's probably a good idea for you to remind me about Watching the English nearer the time of the banquet.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

Meant to add: If you do decide to give Watching the English a try, I can of course lend you our copy. I can bring it to the Taruithorn banquet, if you want.

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

Thank you very much! I'd like to take you up on that offer, please ;-) Presumably returning it at Wightfrag will be acceptable?

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

Sure!

Talking about books, didn't I lend you a pair of books a while ago. I can't for the life of me remember the titles or the author. The first was a paperback, and the second a hardback. Fantasy novels. Spoiled brat of a main character. Very nice best friend. Kinda slashy in parts. The first book was called, I think, "The____" (name of the hereditary magic that the main character wielded.) Author is David something? I'm not nagging - I just want to make sure that I'm not imagining this. :-)

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

Good heavens, so you did! The Still, by David Feintuch (sp?) plus sequel. I'd quite forgotten, sorry ;-( They're around, er, somewhere...

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

No problem! I'd kind of forgotten myself, until I was tidying my bookshelves and came across the batch of slashy fantasy I'd bought a couple of years ago, and remembered them. There's no hurry!

Still mulling this over...

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

I've been thinking about why I hate the word 'lounge'. I think it's partly because of the way it seems to want to be said, looouuuunge, all sort of louche and decadent, partly because of 'lounge lizards', and partly because I have enough trouble with being tempted to lounge around uselessly as it is, without giving it official sanction by having a whole room dedicated to the activity. (I think these reasons are all a bit connected, in my head.) Having a 'sitting room' is much safer, shades of exhortations to 'sit nicely', 'sit up straight' ;-)

Oddly enough, 'sitting room' was pretty much a conscious choice of mine (probably the only one of the ones I've mentioned, and as noted it doesn't count on the U/non-U scale anyway as it isn't given as an option); growing up, we had what was very practically called the 'front room', but I have never since then lived in a house with a front room. In our previous house the relevant room was at the back, in this one, really *everything* is a front room, so singling out just one would be silly. Skordh, I notice, tends to say 'living room' (also not a listed alternative), but I'm rather averse to that, as somehow it seems to imply other rooms aren't for living in, which feels a bit creepy.

[wellinghall.livejournal.com]

Never read it - but am tempted to.

[evilmissbecky.livejournal.com]

I like "try hard" as another way of saying "you're hopeless" and plan to use it.

Do or do not. There is no try.

And in case I don't talk to you before then, have a wonderful Christmas!

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

And Happy Christmas to you! :-)

[the-marquis.livejournal.com]

Oddly while we love our puddings, there is actually a German desserty thing called "pudding" which is like those sweet, light, and fluffy things that come in pots and are sold from fridges in shops but which we'd refer to by the brand name (eg Cadburys chocolate ...), but they're a thicker consistency and not yoghurty like a Muller Corner, oh and they can be chocolate or vanilla.

[chainmailmaiden]

Sweet dishes often have salt added, we were told in cookery class that it was to improve the texture, but I'm not sure how true that is. What it definitely does do is make you want to eat more of it, apparently the salt/sweet combination does something to your tastebuds to stimulate them - Bacchus would be able to explain how. Vanilla ice cream with salted caramel sauce is particularly moreish :-)