Tarts

[ladyofastolat]

Prompted by a question on Sporcle: (Yup, still addicted.)

What's the difference between a pie and a tart? My Dad (Scottish) says that it doesn't matter how big it is or whether it has a lid or not; if it's sweet it's a tart and if it's savoury it's a pie. He has mince tarts at Christmas. My Mum (English) says that it doesn't matter how big it is or what the filling is; if it has a pastry lid it's a pie, and if it's open it's a tart. She sometimes has mince pies at Christmas and sometimes has mince tarts, depending on whether they're lidless or not. I've ended up bilingual in the tart department, and call covered savoury things pies and open sweet things tarts (unless they're Bakewell puddings) but it all falls apart in the middle.

And how do flans fit in?

EDIT: Having already established that there are regional variations, I'm not trying to find the One True Definition, but I'm interested in hearing opinions.

EDIT 2: More thoughts. Lots of pubs serve "pies" that are bowls of stew with some pastry floating on top. Is this really a pie?

Secondly, some places offer "tarlets." How small does a tart have to be before it's a tartlet? Should there be an international standard measure?

Thirdly, if a tart is a lidless pie, I see Tolkien-related puns ahead. I need to make some more pie banners this year, to include "Sell me pies, sell me sweet little pies," and to advertise the price list (pie-rates, though it's a shame the Bar Of The Thousand Pies isn't in Penzance) so I think some sort of lidless pie will be added to the list.

EDIT 3: Nothing to do with pies at all, but another word meaning question. What sort of a person has a stronghold? The news is talking about "the rebels' stronghold" in Libya. I think only rebels and villains have strongholds; Good King Fluffy and his happy men wouldn't have one. Only Dark Lords have fastnesses and only villains have lairs, but everyone can have a base or an HQ. "I retire to my base, you retreat to your stronghold, he skulks in his lair."

Comments

[philmophlegm.livejournal.com]

I think I'm with your mum, but I expect there are exceptions.

[lil-shepherd.livejournal.com]

I'm with your mum too - but I think that 'tarts' are sweet and open, and 'flans' are savoury and open, and pies, whether sweet or savoury, always have a lid.

[steepholm.livejournal.com]

I'm of the open/closed school, though on reflection it's strange that something called tart should have to be sweet. And a tarte tatin is different again.

I recently read that what they used to call pies in Elizabethan times (pretty much their main version of fast food) were more like what we'd call pasties or turnovers, which makes me wonder whether the "classic" container-with-filling+lie model is actually but a small province of the empire of piedom.

[themis1.livejournal.com]

Also with your mother. I think the difference with flans is to do with the type of topping, I was thinking egg but then I realised this would get me into confusion with quiches ... sigh!

[phoebesmum.livejournal.com]

I'm with your mum, mostly, except that I think of pies (meat or apple etc, pastry lid) as being large, to feed several, and tarts (open, always sweet) as small, individual. Flans, open, always sweet, sometimes made with sponge rather than pastry, large. Quiche, open, always savoury (eggy filling), usually large, small defined specifically as mini-quiche and a modern innovation.

[inamac.livejournal.com]

Um, is it very wrong of me to ask about the position of Lemon Meringue Pie in this conversation?

I'm of the 'lid = pie, open = tart/flan' persuasion.

I suppose a meringue topping counts as a lid.

[sally_maria]

Well, basically I agree that pies have lids, whether apple pies or steak and kidney.

On the other hand, I'm not sure I can imagine a savoury tart, because all the savoury things I know have lids. (As I said in my other comment, quiches are something quite different in my brain, whether that's logical or not.)

So the distinguishing feature is the presence or absence of a lid, but on the other hand, all tarts are also sweet.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

When I was growing up we used to have 'apple pies' which had lids but not bottoms - basically, a pile of apple in a dish and a pastry lid on the top.

I'm not sure that 'tart' is a word that I use, except in the context of jam. And I don't think I say 'flan' either.

[philmophlegm.livejournal.com]

One pie that wouldn't work if it had a lid is the Tiswas-style custard pie.

[chainmailmaiden]

Looking in my copy of The Book of Old Tarts I am informed that the distinguishing feature of a tart is that it must have a pastry base, whether or not it has a pasty lid is irrelevant according to the author and just to confuse things she also sees no point in trying to distinguish between tarts, pies, quiches and cheesecakes... She doesn't mention size, but to me a family sized thing is a tart and individual sized ones are tartlets.

The book really is very good, I highly recommend it, despite the fact it has no pictures which I do always find useful in a recipe book. There are recipes for both sweet and savoury tarts dating back to Roman times. A lot of what she describes as savoury tarts I'd generally call a quiche as they contain a filling bound together by egg, but I do wonder if calling them tarts might make them more acceptable to those prejudiced against quiches because of their 80s connotations.

[louis-soul.livejournal.com]

Tart:small,two of three bites,very sweet.
Tart-let: tiny, one bite, very sweet.

Pie: large, sweet/savoury-anything thrown together.

Stronghold: area of people who are psychologically manipulated/forced/overwhelmed,sympathize with a group. Owners of strong hold usually have a strong psychological presence, either of fear or good works toward the people, hence a belief in leaders said power.

[wellinghall.livejournal.com]

"They start off as maids of honour, but they end up as tarts."