When is a cult not a cult?
Nov. 12th, 2006 09:36 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
ladyofastolatOkay, so what is a cult DVD? Looking at my DVD collection I can find a few that definitely aren't (Notting Hill, Sleepless in Seattle), a lot that definitely are (original series Star Trek etc.) and a whole lot that might be or might not be.
Recent debate (some of it after wine on Friday night, so possibly unreliable, though very heart-felt) has ranged over the following issues:
- Is it something to do with the content? Magazines like TV Zone claim to cover "cult TV", but cover programmes before they've even aired, suggesting that some things come ready labelled as "cult" even before any audience has watched them. All sf and fantasy seems to do this, as do things about gangsters, drink or drugs, most black comedies, and satire.
- Is it to do with the type of person who watches them? Is a cult DVD defined as being "the sort of DVD a person who likes cult DVDs watches." It's like the definition of geek, which sometimes seems rather circular. Liking certain things gets you labelled as a "geek", and therefore all those other things that this geeky person does also become, by extension, geeky pursuits. Is a cult DVD purely defined as "one someone can take to a cult DVD-watching weekend without thinking that your fellow attendees will laugh at you for owning it."
- Is it to do with the viewing figures: If a film is a "cult success", this normally means "hardly anyone watched it." However, it does usually also mean that those few people did really like it. Really, the classic cult TV series is one that a small group of people love obsessively, but most people have never heard of, or "don't get it". However, merely having low viewing figures doesn't make something a cult. There are plenty of low-rated serious documentaries on TV, which no-one would call cult.
Anyway, the above become my working definition of cult TV - something that "the majority" doesn't watch, but those who do watch it like it obsessively, and set up internet sites devoted to it, etc. "Firefly" is an obvious example - low-rated, unheard of by "the masses", but instantly with hundreds of websites and forums devoted to loving it.
But there are still questions...
What about Star Wars? It has the obsessive fan base. It has the sf subject matter. No-one would question its presence at a cult DVD weekend. But most people in the world have watched it. It can hardly be called a minority thing. And ditto with "The Lord of the Rings" - a "cult book" that almost everyone has read, or is at least aware of.
Does the mere presence of obsessive fans make something a cult? But what about soap operas? Eastenders doubtless has a fan club, and people who base their whole evening schedule around catching every episode. But is Eastenders cult TV?
Can something stop being a cult? For example, now that Doctor Who is watched by millions, and is the latest fashionable thing for all 10 year olds to watch, is it no longer cult TV? Or, in 2006, are the recent series of Doctor Who non-cult, but the older series still cult? The X-Files started as cult TV, but then seemed to become flavour of the month for a while. Did it stop being cult TV during these years? Then, later, did it become cult again, since viewing dropped to the hardcore of loyal fans?
Does age alone bestow cult status? A lot of old TV series seem to have become cult, merely on the grounds of surviving. 60s shows that were mainstream in the 60s are now cult. In 20 years time, will "Friends" be called a "cult comedy show"? Websites devoted to cult TV are full of old children's TV shows like Bagpuss. A lot of sites seem to use "cult TV" and "classic TV" interchangeably. But Casablanca, and Citizen Kane... Classic movies, undoubtedly, but cult ones...?
Then things like Buffy come with the "cult" label on it right from the start, before even airing. Age doesn't always come into it.
There is nothing absolute about it; it is related to audience. Anything in a foreign language seems to become by definition cult, regardless of the subject matter, genre, or popularity in its home country. Bob the Builder probably isn't cult if watched by 4 year olds, but if Bob the Builder DVDs suddenly become all the rage with students, it probably is a cult show, for them.
No, I have no answers whatsoever, so, in the absence of a conclusion, I will just bring this to a sudden and abrupt.
Recent debate (some of it after wine on Friday night, so possibly unreliable, though very heart-felt) has ranged over the following issues:
- Is it something to do with the content? Magazines like TV Zone claim to cover "cult TV", but cover programmes before they've even aired, suggesting that some things come ready labelled as "cult" even before any audience has watched them. All sf and fantasy seems to do this, as do things about gangsters, drink or drugs, most black comedies, and satire.
- Is it to do with the type of person who watches them? Is a cult DVD defined as being "the sort of DVD a person who likes cult DVDs watches." It's like the definition of geek, which sometimes seems rather circular. Liking certain things gets you labelled as a "geek", and therefore all those other things that this geeky person does also become, by extension, geeky pursuits. Is a cult DVD purely defined as "one someone can take to a cult DVD-watching weekend without thinking that your fellow attendees will laugh at you for owning it."
- Is it to do with the viewing figures: If a film is a "cult success", this normally means "hardly anyone watched it." However, it does usually also mean that those few people did really like it. Really, the classic cult TV series is one that a small group of people love obsessively, but most people have never heard of, or "don't get it". However, merely having low viewing figures doesn't make something a cult. There are plenty of low-rated serious documentaries on TV, which no-one would call cult.
Anyway, the above become my working definition of cult TV - something that "the majority" doesn't watch, but those who do watch it like it obsessively, and set up internet sites devoted to it, etc. "Firefly" is an obvious example - low-rated, unheard of by "the masses", but instantly with hundreds of websites and forums devoted to loving it.
But there are still questions...
What about Star Wars? It has the obsessive fan base. It has the sf subject matter. No-one would question its presence at a cult DVD weekend. But most people in the world have watched it. It can hardly be called a minority thing. And ditto with "The Lord of the Rings" - a "cult book" that almost everyone has read, or is at least aware of.
Does the mere presence of obsessive fans make something a cult? But what about soap operas? Eastenders doubtless has a fan club, and people who base their whole evening schedule around catching every episode. But is Eastenders cult TV?
Can something stop being a cult? For example, now that Doctor Who is watched by millions, and is the latest fashionable thing for all 10 year olds to watch, is it no longer cult TV? Or, in 2006, are the recent series of Doctor Who non-cult, but the older series still cult? The X-Files started as cult TV, but then seemed to become flavour of the month for a while. Did it stop being cult TV during these years? Then, later, did it become cult again, since viewing dropped to the hardcore of loyal fans?
Does age alone bestow cult status? A lot of old TV series seem to have become cult, merely on the grounds of surviving. 60s shows that were mainstream in the 60s are now cult. In 20 years time, will "Friends" be called a "cult comedy show"? Websites devoted to cult TV are full of old children's TV shows like Bagpuss. A lot of sites seem to use "cult TV" and "classic TV" interchangeably. But Casablanca, and Citizen Kane... Classic movies, undoubtedly, but cult ones...?
Then things like Buffy come with the "cult" label on it right from the start, before even airing. Age doesn't always come into it.
There is nothing absolute about it; it is related to audience. Anything in a foreign language seems to become by definition cult, regardless of the subject matter, genre, or popularity in its home country. Bob the Builder probably isn't cult if watched by 4 year olds, but if Bob the Builder DVDs suddenly become all the rage with students, it probably is a cult show, for them.
No, I have no answers whatsoever, so, in the absence of a conclusion, I will just bring this to a sudden and abrupt.
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no subject
Date: 2006-11-14 01:38 pm (UTC)Personally, I think the reason that 'Countdown' might be cult is that it has a subset of particularly devoted fans. That would also apply to the shows and films more typically considered as cult. Just because there may be mainstream fans who watch every episode (but who wouldn't, say, bid on eBay for a Richard Whiteley autographed dictionary), doesn't mean that the programme isn't a cult. What matters is that there is a section of devoted hard-core fans who create websites, go to conventions, start up fan clubs etc.
You can apply this test to most programmes and it works (or at least it does for me). It makes particular sense for non-SF type shows and films that might be considered cult, for example:
The Sound of Music
The Blues Brothers
Spinal Tap
Anything by Oliver Postgate
Soccer AM
Test Match Special on Radio 4 LW (surely the only reason anyone ever listens to long wave radio...)
Dallas (but not Dynasty)
Even individual presenters or commentators may be cult by this definition. Although also popular in the mainstream, I would suggest:
Lorraine Kelly
Murray Walker
The late Richard Whiteley
Jerry Springer (but not Oprah or Tricia)
The late Fred Dibnah
Actually, thinking on, I may need to refine this model. If the hardcore fans exist only in Germany, then it doesn't count. Otherwise, we'll have to include David Hasselhoff...
no subject
Date: 2006-11-14 05:21 pm (UTC)I imagine there are a lot of mainstream TV programmes that become cult programmes when they're watched in student common rooms. Countdown, perhaps? Certainly "Going for gold" for a student cult hit back when I was at Merton.