Pronunciation

[ladyofastolat]

It used to be a rite of passage for new members in the Oxford Tolkien Society. At some point, innocently, they would say "SORE-on" or "MINE-as Tirith," and get loudly corrected by everyone present. Okay, so it didn't happen to everyone, but it happened enough to be - in my memory at least - something of an in-joke. I certainly pronounced both words wrong until I was told.

The Hobbit was a book I had read to me, aged 8 (although I illicitly reached the book down from its "out of reach" place on top of the wardrobe and read ahead) so I can blame my original mispronunciation of Smaug on my Mum. (She also said "Fylie and Kylie," which I stubbornly persist with, despite the Kylie Minogue connotations (that didn't exist back then, of course) because I think the alternatives sound even sillier. Or sylie. Or seelie.) The Lord of the Rings names I read to myself at 9, so have only myself to blame.

Not that I feel that guilty, really. How important is it that people pronounce fantasy names "correctly," do you think? Do you study and inwardly digest pronunciation guides - if such things exist - and try your utmost to get things right? If you encounter confusing names, do you turn to the end to see if there's a pronunciation guide to help you?

What if you don't find the pronunciation guide until the end? Do you read it at all? If if reveals that you've pronouncing key names "wrong," do you change your mental pronunciation, or just shrug and ignore it? Or does it depend on how likely you are to reread the book and talk about it to other people: other people who might laugh at you if you get it wrong?

What if the author suggests a pronunciation that you think is plain silly. I once listened to Stephen King reading aloud from his Dark Tower series, and he gave the character Cuthbert - a normal real world name - a pronunciation that, in my accent at least, was just wrong. I resolved to completely ignore him.

Or do you bother with pronunciation at all? To be honest, I often don't. I recognise the names visually, and often don't pay that much attention to what they might sound like. This is why I get so horribly confused if two characters in a book have made-up names of similar lengths, starting with the same letter. I just constantly and consistently get them mixed up. And some characters, especially those with long names, I never bother pronouncing at all. If the names are particulaly long and non-English looking, I can even reach the end of a long series of books, yet still be unable to answer the simple question "what's the name of the hero."

Comments

[bookwormsarah.livejournal.com]

I used to have a problem with real names: I initially read Anne (I'd only come across it without the E) as Annie - my excuse was being five. It took me a while to get used to the other way. I had a series of books with a character called Simone, who I pronounced Sim-on-ee for ages. No idea where I got that from.

When I read Game of Thrones I pronounced Jaime as Zhame rather than Jamie, and I remember Jacon, a character in the Star Wars novels who I thought of as Jackon rather than Jason. With the former I changed my mental pronunciation when I watched the series, but the latter is still Jackon in my mind (although it must be 20 years since I read the books), mainly because there is little to reinforce the alternative.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I always talked about Jaime as "Jamie", but I did so 100% convinced that I was wrong and being a bit mischievous - undermining this shiny fantasy knight by calling him by such an ordinary name. I was amazed when I went to a talk by GRRM and found out that I'd been right all along!

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

It's like fan-fiction: some authors care and some authors don't. Tolkien put a pronunciation guide in the back of the book, so he rather cared.

Americans often tend to say SORE-on uncorrected. British Tolkien fans tend to be more exacting about this. I think the only time I corrected someone was an American who was test-reading for me a paper she was going to give at a British Tolkien conference; I didn't want her to be dismissed through ignorance of this.

As a fluent reader, I had a tendency as a child to gulp unfamiliar words whole and get them wrong. At first I read "Frodo" as "Fredo" or "Frado". Bored of the Rings has "Frito", which is a brand of corn chip.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I definitely feel more responsibility to try to pronounce things correctly with Tolkien, since so many of his names and invented words (although not the Hobbit dwarf names, of course) are part of properly crafted languages that he laboured over long and hard.

[kalimac.livejournal.com]

Speaking of Hobbit dwarf names, I've remembered that, although I believe that "Balin" is supposed to be pronounced with a short "a" (first syllable to rhyme with "pal", at least in General American), I have always pronounced it with a long "a", "BAY-lin." Same with Dwalin, although I don't know how that one's supposed to be pronounced.

Then there's Ælfwine. I know that's alf-win-uh, and that's what I say when I'm being proper. But secretly, in my heart, I want to say elf-wine.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

They were BAYlin and DWAYlin when my Mum read the book to me when I was little, so that's how I always said those names. I think I've switched over now, although I suspect that sometimes I settle somewhere between the two in an agony of indecision.

With those dwarf names, I don't feel as much of an obligation to try to pronounce them "right" as I do with names that Tolkien lovingly crafted according to his own language rules. Although, arguably, since they come from a real world source written in a real world language, I ought to feel MORE obligation to get them right.

[leesa_perrie]

I don't always bother wondering how it sounds out loud, though sometimes I do. I think it varies, not sure why though! If I hear that I'm pronouncing it wrong, then I will usually try to remember the correct pronounciation, but can't always guarantee to do so! Though occasionally I'll stick to my way - again, it varies. And in the case of a name like Cuthbert, I'm sticking to the British way (unless it's a real person, then I do try to remember how they pronounce it out of politeness).

But hey, you should try pronouncing some of the names in the Bible!! And then, after hearing British speakers for all your life, listen to a Texan preacher. It took me a while to figure out which book of the Bible he was reading from, due to the difference in pronounciation!! :) :)

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

It can be so difficult to work out the "correct" pronouncation, anyway. The author might say in their pronouncation guide that a name is pronounced "to rhyme with grass," say, but readers in the north and south of England would read that as being a different sound, quite apart from readers in the US and elsewhere.

[leesa_perrie]

The first time I heard the American pronounciation of 'bouy' was a surprise, and 'oregano' I only got because they were cooking and adding a herb!

And yes, there's the whole 'scone' and 'bath' pronounciation differences within the UK too!

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I had no idea what they were talking about when I first heard the American pronunciation of "buoy." It was in a Star Trek Next Gen episode, IIRC, and I just assumed it was something strange and science fictiony. It was some while before I finally put two and two together and realised what word they were actually saying.

[leesa_perrie]

LOL! For me, it was in an episode of Numb3rs that I first noticed it, and fortunately there was enough context for me to figure it out!

[evilmissbecky.livejournal.com]

It's fairly important to me to get it right. If there's a guide, I will do my best to follow it, although if I have strong feelings about the name, I cheerfully ignore the "right" pronunciation in favor of my own.

Therefore, yes, it is Cuthbert, not Cyooth-bert.

Also, Crowley of Good Omens is pronounced to rhyme with cow, not like crow the bird.

I'm actually almost done re-reading The Silmarillion again, and I've tried very hard to get the names pronounced right in my head as I go. Except for Eärendil. I strongly suspect I say that one wrong. (I say Air-end-eel, with the stress on the second syllable.)

[vocatus-fortis.livejournal.com]

I tried many times to read the Silmarillion, only to keep giving up as I couldn't make sense of the names.

I've since discovered the wonderful audiobook read by Martin Shaw. It's made such a difference for me.
Eärendil (to me - and Martin Shaw) is pronounced with four syllables
"Eh-ah-REHN-deel" - emphasis on the -REHN-. The final -ee- is a little shorter than I can easily express here.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

But how does that pronunciation of "Eärendil" work with the metre of Bilbo's poem? That poem requires the name to have a "du-DUH-du-du" rhythm, surely?

[king-pellinor.livejournal.com]

Squidge the e and the a together into a diphthongy composite syllabub:

eyah REN dil woz uh MAR in uh / that TAH reed in ah VER ni en

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

To be honest, that works better than the pronunciation I always deduced from that poem (Ay-AIR-en-dil) because mine requires "was a" to be said really quickly, in the hope that no-one notices that it's added an extra syllable. The only trouble is, it comes out sounding rather like "YaRENDil," which makes him sound like a minion of that dread monster Yaerende that so many people battle in the early weeks of each year.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I seem to be inconsistent. I read all the Lymond books calling him "Limmond," before finding out that it should be LYEmond, whereupon I instantly changed. And I remember you telling me the correct pronunciation of Gelis, who I'd been calling GELL-iss, with a hard G. But with GRRM, I'm all over the place, and continue to be so, despite the show. I still say Cersei with a hard C (CURSE-ay), say "Arry-a", not "ARE-ya," am completely all over the place with Daenerys, and persist in pronouncing Tywin as if he's Welsh.

[bunn.livejournal.com]

The bad lord Tywin
from Mynydd Ceiswyn
he went to ty bach
..?

[vocatus-fortis.livejournal.com]

I pronounce Smaug as S-mow-g (the 'ow' rhymes with "cow" and "how"

Similarly, Sauron has the same 'ow' sound (to me).

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I thought of Telemachus that way, too, until I read Tennyson's poem Ulysses. Poems can be quite useful things!

King pronounced it CYOOOTH-bert, IIRC.

[kargicq.livejournal.com]

It briefly annoyed me that in the TV version of Game of Thrones, the pronunciation of "Tyrell" varies widely (sometimes within the same dialogue). But then again, living in a city which is pronounced differently in different parts of its own country (NEW-carsul versus new-CASS-ul) reminds me that even native speakers have considerable variation with proper nouns!

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

Good point. It would be lovely to see a pronunciation guide in a fantasy novel that takes regional accent into account, but I guess that would just end up getting far too complicated.

Although there's a nice bit in The Thief, by Megan Whalen Turner, when a learned character talks about the country of EDD-is, and another character points out that the natives actually call it EED-is, and the learned character says, "what do they know, the backward fools? Educated pronunciation has moved on now!" (or words to that effect.) (I'm being vague, because it's a book that I very definitely don't want to post spoilers for.)

Plus, I like the way that Peter Jackson has elves and elf-friendly people pronounce quite a lot of names differently from how the other characters say them.

[king-pellinor.livejournal.com]

It's all about the sibboleths :-)