Grr

[ladyofastolat]

Grr! I wrote a post this morning, but didn't finish it. Since LJ now saves drafts, I was able to finish it at work, but couldn't post it, since I often can't update from work. I'm home briefly now, before going to a meeting in Cowes, and went to post it from the saved draft. I did indeed post it... then noticed it had posted the incomplete saved draft from this morning, not the draft of the completed version. I deleted it... and now it's lost the draft, too, so I'll have to start again from scratch.

Or not bother. Summary was: musings about book sequels, with mentions of Robin Hobb, and Tehanu. Talk about "The King of Attolia", that I read yesterday. A review of "The Thief" by Megan Whalen Turner (the book that "The King of Attolia" is the second sequel to.) Key message: Great book! Not so great sequel. Great second sequel. Read it!

There. A two page post summarised in three lines. Off to my meeting now.

Comments

[windrunner1981.livejournal.com]

Wait...no...what...?! I want to hear more about what you think of Tehanu!

[skordh.livejournal.com]

Me too.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

Okay. I really, really disliked Tehanu when I first read it (aged 19, or so, I believe, having read the first three books at 11), and, although I've tried, I've never been able to get over my initial dislike.

The thing I really disliked was Ged losing his powers. Yes, yes, I know that this is supposed to be a good thing for him. He's finally learning happiness and love and all those things - the things he's not had while seeking power as a wizard. I know this... but I just didn't like it. At 11, I'd fallen in love with Ged the powerful wizard. I didn't want to see him as a retired, normal man, living in obscurity.

I also disliked the sudden appearance of feminism in the series. To me, it jarred too much with the rest of the series. It read like an author who had suddenly had a change of heart, and wanted to retrospectively change her existing fictional world to suit her new ideas. (Which I suppose is her right, but I didn't like it. I want to immerse myself in a fictional world, without constantly seeing the author at work. This alienates me.)

Plus I do always have a bias against female characters in fantasy novels. If a fantasy novel has a female lead, I don't even read it. I simply prefer male casts. The other books were full of men. This one was suddenly full of Girl Power with the men doing nothing.

[windrunner1981.livejournal.com]

I can sympathize. I also disliked Tehanu extremely when I first read it. While I didn't mind the feminism so much, it wasn't quite my particular brand of feminism...there was so much stress paid upon an irreconciable difference between men and women that I almost felt as if it were more regressive than progressive. It made me rather uncomfortable and depressed. And this is coming from a girl who adores strong female leads (McKinley's Aerin and Harry, Pierce's Alanna, and the Tenar from The Tombs of Atuan). But there was just so much fear and shame in the story...I don't know, I just don't see that as feminism.

I've become somewhat reconciled to Tehanu since then, although perhaps it was easier for me than you because I first read Earthsea as a college junior and went straight from The Farthest Shore to Tehanu. I didn't have 8 years of history to battle with. I also think that I'll appreciate it more as I grow older, since it seems to deal with themes that would appeal more to middle-aged/elderly readers than ambitious, fiery, young ones who think they'll never be defeated.

I do think the book has interesting things to say about power, and how power over other living creatures is incredibly dangerous and uncomfortable...and almost disrespectful. I think this has somewhat colored my perception of TDIR. I've begun to - not resent, exactly - but question the way that Old Ones take such a high hand in human affairs. This always was in the books, of course, but I've begun paying a lot more attention to it recently.

Well, I'm going to stop rambling there. Two quick long questions, if you don't mind my pursuing this further. *grins* First: What exactly bothers you about female fantasy leads? I do think that the vast majority are silly and overly "buxom", but there are some fine ones out there. *points above* And second: How do you approach Atuan, which is such a woman-centric book? Le Guin has written somewhere that when re-reading the book once, she suddenly realized that it was all about sex. I think I agree with her and would go one step further and say that it's all about a man's sexual power over a woman. There's some really unpleasant stuff there at the end in the relationship between Ged and Tenar that has always made me uncomfortable. Anyway, to sum-up this second question: recognizing both your distaste for female leads and you childhood admiration for the original Earthse trilogy, what do you think of Atuan?

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I agree about the feminism. I read some of the things LeGuin said about her reasons for writing Tehanu as she did, and she makes a lot about the irreconcilable differences between men and women, which I just don't agree with. People are people. Some characteristics are a little more likely to be found in women, and some a little more likely to be found in men, but I think people should relate to others as humans first and foremost, with gender, race and everything else pushed far into the background.

Female fantasy leads don't bother me per se (except when they insist on wearing chainmail bikinis on the front cover.) I can deal with female leads, as long as the blurb also makes clear that there's going to be an interesting male character featuring strongly, too.

My preference for male leads derives from shallowness, pure and simple. If a main character is running around with a sword, saving the world and doing cool magic, I want them to be someone I can fall in love with. I can fall in love with male heroes. Female heroes I can't. (And, yes, I realise I am totally hypocritical, given what I've just said about reacting to people as humans first and foremost, but fiction is different from life.)

I do, though, also get annoyed by the anachronism that's behind a lot of strong female leads in historical novels. So many novels end up showing a medieval woman in a medieval, patriachal society who is "strong" - i.e. uses a sword, answers back, and does things that just wouldn't have been done in that sort of society. That just annoys me. A pet hate of mine is modern values being imposed on the past. I prefer female characters, in historical settings, to be strong within the confines of their society, not "strong" in a way defined by the values of 2006, that doesn't fit in with their own world.

(If that makes sense at all...)

As for Atuan... I read it at 11, so maybe I was a bit different in my reactions then. I do remember, though, that it was my least favourite of the three, and on re-reading it, I was often tempted to skip to the bits where Ged appeared.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I should add that when I said "if a fantasy novel has a female lead, I don't even read it", that's an exaggeration. It's more a case of, "if a fantasy novel has a female lead, I'm less likely to read it, and will check first to make sure it also has an interesting-looking male co-lead."

[skordh.livejournal.com]

OK very interesting. I felt very similarly about Tehanu when I first read it and I still think it jars especially some of the feminist inserts, but I have come to like it a lot more. I think a lot of the writing is Le Guin in her powerful, traditional Earthsea style and I like a lot of the elements. I do think it's fair for her to try and show what it's like being powerless in Earthsea, for example if a nasty mage decides to pick on you. Also in showing Ged powerless and not coming down from the mountain, it is properly following on from the summary we were given at the end of 'The Farthest Shore', and it is interesting to see him try to cope with losing his magery. I would have thought he would have handled it better, given how he coped with some of the vicissitudes of 'The Tombs of Atuan' and 'The Farthest Shore', but there you go.

I don't know if you have read the sequels to the sequel, 'Tales from Earthsea' and 'The Other Wind'. I don't want to spoiler you if not but Le Guin goes on to develop the world even further and (to my mind) unpick not just stuff from the earlier books but also from Tehanu. However, the plot in 'The Other Wind' is more of a traditional Earthsea plot.

I still think that the original trilogy are excellent and the follow-ups don't have quite the same force, but I'd rather have them than not.

P.S. have you read 'The Left Hand of Darkness'? If not I strongly recommend it to you for all sorts of reasons!

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I haven't read the other sequels. I glanced at them, but decided not to read them. I was scared that they would end up doing even more damage to my enjoyment of the world from the original three stories. I probably ought to read them one day. I probably ought to try Tehanu again, too. One day...

I've not read "The left hand of darkness." Is it a book you would strongly recommend to anyone... or a book that you would strongly recommend to me in particular, for specific reason? (Not checked its summary on Amazon yet, so I have no idea what it's about.)

[skordh.livejournal.com]

"The left hand of darkness" is one of Le Guin's science fiction books, shares the same background as "Rocannon's World" and "The Disposessed" among others though they are all perfectly self-contained and there is no one you need to read first. In my view they share a lot of the magic, powerful writing etc... of the Earthsea books although of course with an SF spin (rather minimal - her love of fantasy comes through!)

The reason I recommend it to you is about slashiness I'm afraid - sorry if I'm making assumptions - though it's also one of my very favourite books! It's the story of a man from an interstellar alliance who is sent alone and unarmed as an emissary to an isolated and rather backward planet called Gethen. His job is to try and persuade the nations of Gethen to join the alliance. The people of Gethen are human just like most people roundabout due to colonisation millions of years ago. Except that, unlike all the other humans, they are androgynous and that runs through all their culture including their love stories, their taboos, legends, and so on. The story is about the emissary's adventures and his developing understanding of / relationship with the Gethenians and with one in particular. I guess the slashiness comes more than anything from terminology because, except for a few days a month when they become male or female at random, the Gethenians are neuter so Le Guin refers to them throughout as 'he' 'lord' 'king' and so on as she (or the narrator) thinks male terms are more suitable, less loaded.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

That sounds interesting. The library has it (wow! A sf/fantasy novel that I want to read is actually in stock in IOW Libraries!!!) I'll reserve it after I come back from America.

As for the slashiness... I ordered two books from Amazon the other week that I knew hardly anything about except that they were fantasy, with pretty male leads, and the blurbs led me to except slashiness, so I certainly can't say you're wrong on your assumption. (Androgynous sounds... odd, though.)

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

...so what books were they? And, (when you've read them) do they live up to expectation?

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

One was "Swordspoint" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553585495/qid=1142184881/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/203-9924649-4535963) by Ellen Kushner. I've already read it. I read it in one sitting, so it must have done something right, but it's not lingered too much in my mind afterwards. I think I'd have liked it a lot more had it been one of a series, in which I could really have got to know the characters, and not just a one-off.

The other is "Luck in the shadows" (http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0553575422/qid=1142184954/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/203-9924649-4535963) by Lynn Flewelling, but I've not read it yet. It's almost definitely going to be one of my aeroplane reads on Friday.

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

Ah, nothing new for me here then - 'Swordspoint' I read from the library years ago and loved, then reacquired a few years ago when it was reissued. There is a sequel of sorts, which I have but haven't read yet; it isn't the same characters, sadly. Thinking about it, 'Swordspoint' was one of the first things I mentally 'wrote' fanfic for (before even knowing there was such a thing) - lots of potential for h/c!

'Luck in the Shadows' and its sequels were more recent acquisitions, following a rec that they were slashy! One of the first books I've got sight unseen, as it were (more usually I'll buy something if I've already read and liked it, or something else by the same author, or possibly on the personal recommendation of someone who knows my taste). Unfortunately Lynn Flewelling has come out publically against fanfic of her work.

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I checked for a sequel to Swordspoint after I finished reading it, and was excited to see there was one... and instantly very disappointed to see that it was about different characters. I doubt I'll read it. I give my hearts to characters, not to worlds.

So, any other fantasy novels you can recommend that have slashy relationships in them?

[jane-somebody.livejournal.com]

I'm very fond of Mercedes Lackey's 'Last Herald Mage' trilogy (Magic's Pawn, Magic's Promise, Magic's Price). Lackey has recently started churning out books with a view to quantity rather than quality, and some people don't think any of her stuff is much good, but these are early books and I think they stand up well. And they certainly fit the pretty hero, angst, h/c bill.

I also like, though these may be harder to find, Diane Duane's 'Door Into' series, starting with 'The Door Into Fire'. There are three of them, and she's been planning to write the fourth for over a decade I think, but they stand alone well enough, especially the first one.

Let's see. The above are overtly slashy, or well, gay really. But there's plenty of stuff that's slashy in the sense of slashable. Hmmn, for pretty heroes, angsting and h/c Judith Tarr is pretty good, as is pretty much anything by Nancy Springer, especially 'The Silver Sun'. Doubtless I'll think of other things later, but I'd better stop for now. And you could borrow any of these from me if you like ;-)

[ladyofastolat.livejournal.com]

I read the Last Herald Mage series. I found it lying around in the living room at some Buttsfrag or other, read the blurb, looked at the cover... and ordered it from Amazon as soon as I got home. I have never read a book that reads more like fanfic. Pretty men galore. Slash. Angst and injury left, right, and centre. I didn't think they were very good... but I loved them anyway.

I've not read the Diane Duane series, but will look out for it. I'll also put the others that you recommend on my "to read" list. Once I've read their Amazon write-ups, checked which (if any) the library stocks, I might well ask if I can borrow a few of them at Wightfrag.